THE FILE: Interview with artist Jeanette Spicer
at kate's, 2017, “To The Ends Of The Earth”, 2012 - ongoing
Jeanette Spicer and Daniel Samaniego met nearly ten years ago at Vermont Studio Center. On a spring day, they reconvened for an old-fashioned sit-down interview at the Art Bar in the Village. They talked about intimacy and photography, the lesbian gaze, forays into sculpture, and long-term bodies of work. Afterward, they wandered into a Sunday afternoon Drag show…
To The Ends Of The Earth
Daniel Samaniego: The first thing that comes to mind when I think about your work is intimacy, and spaces of intimacy. When I look at your images, I think about how deeply they touch on intimate relationships and intimate spaces. Is this something that you think about specifically before you make something? Or is that something that comes about organically?
Jeanette Spicer: The spaces that I shoot in are often where I feel like I have control because there's no one else around. I don’t have to worry about anyone watching or getting in the way. And I'm actually thinking more about incorporating the space into the photographs. The way that I do that right now is through just being really conscious of how light hits a certain space. I am concentrating more on the bodies and I want to think more about them as I continue to shoot, to think more about how certain things in that space can speak to the subject. I'm trying to be looser. Right now I feel very controlled about the light and the atmosphere. Intimacy is a big part of the work because I like to see people that I'm already close to or intimate with as kind of what I like to call an alternate intimacy. For example, photographing my mom and my girlfriend [Sara]. Those are two people that would normally not be in the same space together, nude. So the way that I shoot questions photography's reputation of being a truth-teller. And I challenge the medium in the sense that it's supposed to be this production of reality. So I create these intimacies that actually don't always exist, but sometimes they do.
Daniel Samaniego: It's interesting to me you're talking about controlling the environment. To what extent do you direct the women in your shoots? Are there prompts or actions that the women are meant to perform? To what extent are you just observing?
Jeanette Spicer: Usually, I observe the space I want to shoot in. And I'll look for light - usually golden hour or high contrast. And then I'll put the bodies into that space and let the light inform me of what to do based on how it falls onto the body. I have different modes of working, so that's one. Last night I saw the cover for a film and it gave me a sketch in my mind for the next image I want to make. I get inspiration from film scenes. Second to that, figurative painting. But it's usually like a jumping-off point, you know? Inevitably, when you get real human beings in front of a frame, their bodies look different and they move and they breathe. So as much as I want to control the scenario, it's never what I think it's going to be. So it starts out controlled and inevitably becomes experimental. And there are definitely moments when we have a setup position and then someone goes to grab a glass of water and I'm like, “Wait!” that happens too, but I would say the stage I set is intentional.
almost, 2023, “What It Means To Be Here”, 2018 - ongoing
Daniel Samaniego: Your gaze is so present in the images. To what extent do you feel like you are observing versus participating with these women? Are you oscillating between participating and observing?
Jeanette Spicer: A good question. I feel like a participant when I'm in the work and I try to do that as much as I can because, you know, I'm asking people to be in the work, and I also like to participate. I always tell people whatever I ask them to do, I would do as well. And sometimes I need to physically be in the work because I don't have anyone else. Other times it's because of the relationship that I'm trying to portray. So in that way, I'm participatory and I think the observing happens more on a day-to-day basis by watching films, reviewing my work, and looking at art. In the moment of shooting, I feel it is more participatory.
mom and me on my dad's couch, 2021, "To The Ends Of The Earth", 2012 - ongoing
Daniel Samaniego: Can we talk about the images with your mother? I feel a certain tension looking at those images in particular. There's so much complexity visually and emotionally, relating to art history and thinking about dismantling traditional, canonical images too, like how the Madonna and child imagery is coming from a distinctly queer and female standpoint.
Jeanette Spicer: I distance myself from my mom when I'm shooting with her, almost like we are actors on set. We are who we are. We are mother and daughter. But I like to say that it's almost like we're acting, and that's how I’m able to make some of the images because some of them are very unusual and have tension or are uncomfortable to me. I'm interested in tension and I think I feel comfortable in spaces that might be thought of as uncomfortable. Based on what I’ve gone through as a person, tension is not something that is foreign to me. So of course it comes out in my practice. It's just part of who I am. Yes, I'm definitely interested in boundaries and tension and where tension fades and comes back. Also, formal tension - thinking about color and light’s relationship to one another. I think a lot about Renaissance painting, depictions of women, trying to dismantle and disrupt the way that women are portrayed. And as a lesbian, it of course complicates my relationship with my mother because we live in a heteronormative society and there is always the question of "Are you attracted to your mother?", "Does your mother think that you're attracted to her?" So I think that comes in and adds another layer, of course, because that's a huge part of who I am in the world, as opposed to if I was straight. I've also introduced Sara into that series because it adds an additional third party. Kind of a new way of seeing what family is. These are two people that are my family in a nontraditional way. So I think even just the sheer documentation of the two of them feels transgressive to me. I think also part of my work is surprising myself. And photography has such a great ability to surprise.
the flu on xmas eve, 2022, "To The Ends Of The Earth", 2012 - ongoing
Daniel Samaniego: I want to go back to the formal aspects of your work - light in particular. Reference points. It seems like it's always summer in your photos - infinite summer which we associate with youth and freedom. I'm wondering about the quality and the character of the light in your work...
Jeanette Spicer: I think that there's something so human about light and just like, relatable and intoxicating for me. There's something about the way that part of a body can fall off into shadow and part of it can be highlighted. For me, it adds depth and it can help me create a puzzle for the viewer to work through the image. It's funny that you mention it always looks like summer because I did a series a while back where I photographed my partner for a whole year. You see every season. I think part of that warm quality of light is because I shoot so tightly right now, I'm not giving you the snow out the window. I grew up around a lot of Manet, Monet, and Van Gogh, which I know are sort of the classic old white guys. But that was just what my Sicilian- trying - to - assimilate - to - American - Culture - Grandmother's house was covered in. I spent a lot of time at my grandparent's house. And as an only child, a lot of time by myself, sort of literally staring at paintings. And I think they had more of a profound effect than I realized. Besides, photography, painting is the other medium that I can relate to. Not so much installation or sculpture, for example.
s at home, 2022, "What It Means To Be Here", 2018 - ongoing
Daniel Samaniego: Although you have been doing sculptural work - I was really excited to see that...
Jeanette Spicer: I have been…
Daniel Samaniego: Going back to your point about putting together puzzles, they have a very modular form. How did those come about?
Jeanette Spicer: Wanting to understand how photography can be seen differently. On the one hand, I'm very invested in photography strictly as a medium. But having shot for more than half of my life it's a restrictive medium. It's literally representative of the very thing in front of you, and it can get frustrating sometimes. So the sculptural aspects reflect my interest in getting off the wall - off of print, and amplifying the form in the shape of my bodies and having the viewer have more of an experience with it. Having to look up and down and walk around them and thinking about how images can just be seen differently than a 2D print.
Daniel Samaniego: When I'm looking at your work, I'm not just looking at images of lesbian women, but I am seeing lesbian women in social spaces, looking at each other and I'm invited into this intimate space that I wouldn't normally have access to. Seeing a social world and ways of being that are intrinsically intimate and distinctly lesbian, and yes, getting to see women desiring other women. So like less a portrait of individual women and more of a portrait of lesbian spaces. I don't know. What do you think about that?
deb and me at teatown, 2023, "What It Means To Be Here", 2018 - ongoing, "To The Ends Of The Earth", 2012 - ongoing
Jeanette Spicer: I agree. That's also the thing about doing work, about people's identities - they shift. So some of the people in the work you know use She/they [pronouns] - but are still comfortable identifying as a woman and identifying as queer, lesbian, or bi. And so for me, it's exactly like an overview of couples, groups, individuals, and self-portraits. I kind of love what you said. Like, I think I am offering an invitation into a space. I feel like so often lesbians, queer women, and bi women - we don't have a seat at the table and we don't have the history photographically that men do or even even gay men have. You know, and there's a reason for that - sexism. And that's sort of what drives my work: my anger about that because it's absolutely unnecessary and just done to oppress women, but it also makes me. And then that anger fuels my desire to make those images. I don't make them as The voice of the LGBTQ community. I just work with people that I know who are willing to work with me. You're invited into our world because we're often not invited into anything. It's important for me that they're constructed. These are real relationships. These are our people - not models that I'm paying that I don't know. As a lesbian, I have to, like, construct my reality. It's important that the images are constructed as well and that they're not a snapshot or shown with a documentary aesthetic. It makes sense for me personally and makes sense based on how I feel in the world and how I move through the world. I often feel abstracted, on the margins or on the peripherals, and I find that I use those elements and aspects when I'm physically constructing an image I think about abstraction. You also have to be conscious of the fact that one of the constant threats of being a lesbian is that you're just going to give something to men to get off to. So I'm very conscious of what I've seen before me and how to make it interesting. Photography is everywhere, regardless of what my subject is. I'm just trying to make an interesting image. You know?
Daniel Samaniego: There's a durational aspect to the work, right? How do you frame a project, or is this an ongoing body of work? A lot of your work seems to be about boundaries and relationships and how they oscillate. How about the framing of the duration of your work? Is the work truly open-ended, or are there placeholders delineating one group of images from the next?
sara and mom in WVA, 2022, "To The Ends Of The Earth", 2012 - ongoing
Jeanette Spicer: Oh, that's a good question. I would say the work with my mom has been going on for 12 years. Until three years ago, it only involved me and my mom. Now it involves Sara. And I never expected that. So, I think that the mother work I keep open-ended because that relationship feels like it will endure time until it doesn't anymore. Versus "What It Means to be Here", my other project, which is a little trickier because it hinges on time, people's time, and desire to be in the work. And those all shift and change. People move, etc. My mom is more constant. I see that work continuing - "What It Means To Be Here", but it doesn't feel like my life's work if that makes sense. The kernel of it does. I think you make one body of work your whole life, which a teacher said to me one time. These are always going to be my concerns and interests. But I see the project ending at some point, and another one beginning. Sometimes I just sit in my studio and collage and no one ever sees it. But I needed to do that at that moment. I'm not always shooting. I'm doing other things, too…
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Follow Jeaneatte Spicer @spicerjeanette_
THE FILE The file is open: studio visits, conversations and issues in new painting and drawing. An ongoing Couch in the Desert interview series curated by Queens-based artist Daniel Samaniego.
Daniel Samaniego is an artist and cultural worker currently based in Queens, New York. Combining fantastic, grotesque and pop imagery, his labor-intensive graphite drawings and theatrically scaled installations explore the interplay between queer identity, desire, and monstrosity. Recent exhibitions include Lavender Scare, curated by Dan Halm at the Spring/Break NY Art Show, and Lined and Torn: Paper Works from The Marjorie Barrick Museum of Art Collection in Las Vegas (both 2023). Samaniego received a BFA from the University of Las Vegas and an MFA from the San Francisco Art Institute and is currently an artist in residence at the Elizabeth Foundation for the Arts Project Space in New York.